DS Daily: Adventures through time
by JC Fletcher 
{ Nov 15th 2008 at 10:30AM }
In the comments area of our recent post about the adventure game Lux-Pain, a discussion popped up about length in adventure games. Basically, they tend to be short. Some people avoid some adventures because of this (a problem that is exacerbated by the fact that most adventure games have zero replay value), and some accept it (understanding that an adventure game requires a great deal more dialogue than most other games).Where do you stand on this issue? Do you love adventure games, but wish they could be longer? Do you steer clear of them in general in an effort to get the most game time out of your money?
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Bowser the Baptist @ Nov 15th 2008 10:48AM
A good game is a good game and its worth should not be measured in terms of price. Then again, as JC points out, the meat and veg of a decent Adventure games is its dialogue, but why pay 35EUROS for a game when you can probably get a superior book for half the price? But I don't like that argument too much.
If the RRP scares you so much, or you're afraid of replay value, just wait a few months and play something else. Most games don't tend to disappear off the face of the planet. Give it five months and most games are already at half price (not counting Nintendo published games, of course).
aj @ Nov 15th 2008 2:24PM
But price is how you have to measure a game's worth.
Look at some of the most highly acclaimed RPGs to ever hit any console. All great games, sure, but do you want to spend close to 100$ for a secondhand game from ten years ago? Even if it is a great game?
And what about the poor blokes who live in Australia. I hear they have horrendous prices for games. And someone here once mentioned the prices in Brazil. Good lord.
Bowser the Baptist @ Nov 16th 2008 6:34AM
Sonic 2 cost £40 15 years ago, and I'd pay the same for that game today. I don't know if that answers any questions, but hey.
chibi_wings @ Nov 15th 2008 11:38AM
ehehehehe. I guess you already know where I stand. ^^;;;;
Zealot @ Nov 15th 2008 12:16PM
Me too, for that matter. Although my opinion is subject to change when I get around to playing Time Hollow and Lux-Pain.
(and Flower, Sun, and Rain too, but I was going to buy that just for being by Suda 51 anyway, so...)
aj @ Nov 15th 2008 2:19PM
30$ for a couple of hours of entertainment seems steep.
I mean, I really, really like adventure games. But 30$ is a bit much. Especially when you can get them on the PC for 5$. I saw a copy of Syberia I and II on one disc for 10$ the other day. When Syberia comes out on the DS, is it going to be 30$? Yep. I don't consider that worthwhile.
Especially when you consider that games that took a lot more time and effort to create cost the same amount of money. It makes you think that maybe the price of games is completely arbitrary.
chibi_wings @ Nov 15th 2008 3:38PM
you may have a point there, especially because games in Japan are priced higher (to the best of my knowledge, most major titles are priced at around 50 US, please correct me if I am mistaken here). It's all supply and demand, the publishers/retailers charge what they think they can get away with(if you can sell a game for 40, why price it at 30 or 20). And most games do drop in price once the demand falls. The sad part is, most big localizers (nintendo, squareenix, konami, ect) see demand as a way of determining whether a certain genre or series is worthwhile (makes them money). So although maybe the prices are not exactly fair, as a fan I try to buy the games/ genres that I think deserve my support, even if I know the company/retailers are charging way more than they should be. Of course that doesn't mean I'm blinding going to pay whatever they demand. I do wait for most games to drop in price. And I am still thankful that DS game prices aren't as bloated as those of the console's. One of the reasons my Wii library remains relatively small compared to my DS library is because I refuse to pay around 60 canadian for a single game.
aj @ Nov 15th 2008 8:43PM
Yes, but even if Squarenix charges 40$ for a game because people will buy them, seeing a couple of games at the shops for 40$ next to a bunch of games for 30$ just highlights how arbitrary it is.
You're in Canada (like meeee!), have you been to a game shop lately? Wal Mart's DS game section has prices ranging from 18.99 to 45.99! I know part of this has to do with conversion rates, but the average person who is thinking about buying a DS game is going to sense that something is up with the prices of DS games, and rightfully so.
And damn it, yes, I paid 40$ for Final Fantasy IV because I knew what I would get. I'm going to pay 40$ for Chrono Trigger. But at the same time, I refuse to pay 40$ for The World Ends With You because I don't think the "square tax" should be applied to something that's an unknown property. And why is The Legend of Kage 2 (a Squarenix game) only 20$? They all require the same programming, they all have the same amount of pages in the game manual, the same amount of plastic in the packaging.
The point being that consumers should stop putting up with it, and part of that is to STOP BUYING GAMES for 30$ that only last a couple of hours.
Bowser the Baptist @ Nov 16th 2008 6:31AM
"And damn it, yes, I paid 40$ for Final Fantasy IV because I knew what I would get. I'm going to pay 40$ for Chrono Trigger. But at the same time, I refuse to pay 40$ for The World Ends With You".
Google Translator: I like rehashed mediocrity over modern ingeniousness. I also like to cling to nostalgia like a quilt because I lack the ambition to try anything outside of my limited comfort zone. I am what's wrong with the gaming industry in 2008.
aj @ Nov 16th 2008 1:12PM
It's not nostalgia if you've never played it before, douche.
But I do offer my most sincere apologies for enjoying something you don't.
chibi_wings @ Nov 16th 2008 2:27PM
no i haven't been in a Gamestop lately, but I was in Walmart today, and yes squareenix's prices are a little too steep (and yes your right, when i said why charge 30 or 20 when you can charge 40, I was alluding to squareenix and nintendo ;]). But I bought FFIV, TWEWY, Animal Crossing (when it was still 44.99 =[) and have CT preordered. Although I wish they would lower the price at least by 5 dollors, I can't help but buy some of their games because I know they will be worth it.
The Walmarts in Ontario all have games from 43.99 (i think there is only one game that refuses to drop and that's super princess peach, the rest start from 38.99) to 18.99, I haven't seen any 44.99 games in awhile except at Best Buy, they tend to be the slowest when it comes to lowering prices. I frequent a few EB games because they tend to have really good sales. I got FFCC:Ring of Fates this summer for 29.99, Chibi Robo for 9.99, Heroes of Mana for 24.99, ect ect. All of these were new!!! Like I said, I buy the ones that I feel are going to be awesome, or I want to support; the rest of the games I keep an eye out for a sale, or a used copy that is competitively priced. =)
BlueS @ Nov 16th 2008 3:20PM
So you think Australians or Brazilians get the worse? I think you're wrong, as games in Central Europe, where I live, are much more steeper than there (though I don't know exactly how much a game costs there, I certainly know they're far closer to the sources of the game industry [like Japan and the US], so they couldn't get so much taxes and plus charges like we do). In the end, a normal game costs $ 68 for PS3 and Xbox 360, and $45 for PC(that's only because nowadays PC games seem to be becoming cheaper here).I saw Far Cry 2 yesterday for $78 (for consoles).
All DS games are $45 or above, but "square tax" is present (in bigger extent) here also, which means a game like World Ends with You costs $ 60. That is, if you can find one, as in bigger department stores there's usually only 3-4 copies of "big games" and 1-2 of smaller ones. And that's not all: there's a total of 20 games on a DS shelf normally, and these consist of better (very expensive) and bad (expensive) games. Just an example: we had Myst before it came out in the US, and it cost 45 bucks. Now, I suppose, after its „not very good” worldwide reception, its price got lower. Not around here.It's gonna stay like that, until some poor (or probably rich) guy buys it for that much, not knowing that it is a total waste of money. Also, games with bargain prices, like Brain Age and Clubhouse games slip into the same category as full price games, which means you can also buy these for $45.
So, all of this creates two things:
1: you buy only those, that you’re certain you’ll like (and which will probably last more than 4 hours)
2: piracy rate is one of the highest in Europe (especially my country)
There’s also the occasional exception, like me, who tries to import games from far away places(like China and Hawaii), hoping that it’s gonna arrive here safely, and also won’t be taxed at the border for too much (Amazon.com and even Amazon.co.uk refuses to ship here, although we've been members of the EU for 7 years now).
aj @ Nov 16th 2008 10:01PM
Central Europe does sound pretty bad. I think Brazil and Australia are actually worse, I've heard people say things about 100$ AUS games, which is darn close to 100$ USD anyways, and in Brazil I remember reading about 300$ USD console games. What the crap?
Though here in Canada, console games are 60 to 80 dollars (CAD, obviously, which is what.....30 to 40 EUR? That may not sound like a lot, but that's only because of the conversion.).
Of course, even in the states PS3 and 360 games are ridiculously price. Though it has been pointed out that SNES games used to be near to 100$, and even PS2 and PSP games that used to sell for 60$ new are now 10$ used, and new PS2 and PSP games are 30 or 40$, so over time it does drop....
However, my point still stands that games are really expensive new, and that makes the gamer pretty leery of just buying something without checking MetaCritic and doing gobs of research. Which sort of ruins the fun of playing games, because I, for one, don't want to know everything there is to know about the game before I play it.
But that's how it is, and it won't change until people stop buying games for inflated prices. Of course, if that were to happen piracy would just be blamed and nothing would change (kind of like CD sales. It's piracy's fault, and not the fact that 30 minutes of bad music ain't worth 22$).
Maybe the slew of "blockbuster" games will just wear people out and they'll stop buying them eventually. From what I've read, the PS3 and 360 aren't really selling all that well compared to past systems as it is. So maybe the price point is driving people away already.
BlueS @ Nov 17th 2008 4:38PM
Oh, I forgot to mention one very important thing, which you should consider when talking about these prices: the GDP. In my country, this much money means a lot more than in countries as big as the US or Brazil. But it doesn't matter in the end: the main thing is, that they ask a lot more money for games, than they should be(everywhere in the world). And that it makes you consider the lasting time of games.
aj @ Nov 18th 2008 3:42AM
BlueS - Are you in Poland?
I only ask because my wife was born in Mikołów, and loves her Nintendo DS. This has nothing to do with anything, but there it is.
BlueS @ Nov 18th 2008 10:18AM
I'm from Hungary (it's a little more to the south), but we're in quite a good relationship with Poland(we had common kings and a lot of historical connections with them in the past). I don't know if it means anything to you (people tend to know the most curious things about my country and there are often a lot of misconceptions in them also).
Sakura3210 @ Nov 15th 2008 3:34PM
I'm biased, since adventure games are my favorite, but I really don't mind paying $30 for a good one. I think part of it may also be the fact that I never finish longer games though :)
Venom @ Nov 15th 2008 4:18PM
I love adventure games. The last one I finished was Time Hollow and I think it's great. Sure, it's a bit on the short side, but I still think it was just the right length, without feeling stretched and drawn out.
I'm looking forward to Lux-Pain and I really REALLY want Nanashi no Game to be localized...
Dirk @ Nov 15th 2008 4:54PM
Obviously price is going to effect sales. A big part of that for me is the experimental factor - the more it costs, the higher the risk of buyer's remorse if it sucks. This contrasts with games you know will be amazing - I bought my DS because it was the only way I could experience Phoenix Wright. I didn't plan to ever buy another game again, I just had to play that game (this was before I knew there were any sequels), so that's a good $170 I was willing to blow on one amazing adventure game. If the developers can convince me the game will blow my mind, price is no longer a factor - some people paid $80 for PW.
But that only comes from a solid game: lovable characters, mindblowing puzzles/twists, and strong exploration. Since most Adventure games are linear, you take actions that advance the story, and actions that were bad guesses. Those bad guesses should also result in entertainment, instead of the usual "I can't do that" line. That's what I mean by strong exploration, and is the primary component of replayability - finding those hidden gems. Gems like all the ways Phoenix can put his foot in his mouth, or all the ways Zack from Zack and Wiki can meet his untimely doom. Otherwise I might as well just use a guide.
gukid @ Nov 15th 2008 4:58PM
I am CRAVING some really good quality, reasonably lengthed games. Too many games nowadays span hundreds of hours, and it's just too much.
I just beat Mother 3 a week or so ago, around 22 hours, which for me is perfect. Is the game is fun enough, I will play through it again. If it wasn't fun, I'm completely done with it and don't have to waste time just "getting stuff" disguised as gameplay.
Covarr @ Nov 15th 2008 6:00PM
Time Hollow is totally worth a second playthrough for the alternate ending, but for the most part the ZERO replay value thing bugs me. I haven't touched a Strong Bad game that I've already beaten.
Shuyin @ Nov 15th 2008 6:59PM
time hollow's 2nd playthrough is 10 minutes long. That's what it takes you to get the alternate ending. It's certainly a disappointment imo.
Covarr @ Nov 15th 2008 8:51PM
A disappointment? I thought it was hilarious.
FantomRedux @ Nov 15th 2008 9:25PM
I got into adventure games with Broken Sword on PC like a thousand years ago. Other than RPG's, adventure games, whether they be point and click or otherwise, are my favourite genre, because I love a good story, and being the one to advance the story just makes all the more worthwhile for me, because I'm not scratching my head for 5 minutes after a plot twist.
The game that got me HOOKED on adventure games was, of course, Phoenix Wright. The Gyakuten Saiban team at Capcom, as well as the localisation teams, should have their wages doubled, because all 4 Ace Attorney games have been pure gold as far as I'm concerned.
Time Hollow is also extremely good story wise. Always been a sucker for a Time based story. Blame Dr Who. It's good to be British :P
Jacksons @ Nov 16th 2008 1:52AM
Games of that nature are perfect rentals. Paying $30 for something that's short and will never be replayed is out of the question for me. There's way too many great games available to make choices like that. In my opinion, anyhow.
hellhammer @ Nov 16th 2008 2:51AM
I've got no gripe with text heavy adventure games and to be honest, I'm really excited that the DS has rejuvenated the genre.
The price is kind of a moot point, as the cost is usually the same for any DS game. The replay value is something that you appreciate again with time, like your favorite book. Hotel Dusk, for example, is going to be much better the second time through, but it may be another year before I pick it up again.
That being said, I'll admit I'm terribly bias, as Snatcher is in my top 3 games of all time.
WHERE IS SNATCHER DS, KO.. NA... MI?!
hijinx @ Nov 16th 2008 6:01AM
It's hard to pay much money for an adventure game. They usually are fairly short (though there used to be some longish ones.) The replay value is a problem, too. I kind of think that in the current era they should all be $5 downloads (well $10-$15 for some of them.)
Write the story well, keep production cost low and be smart with advertising, and produce quite a few. People who like adventure games like adventure games, so selling a lot of cheap games is easier than selling a single expensive one.
Phoenix Wright is an exception. I think Capcom did the best they could. The length is quite satisfying, but I think they should move to a DLC model for the DSi. Otherwise I don't think we'll see much of it in this regoin.
I wish Sierra's studios would port all of their old adventures to DS. They'd fit well, and you could stick half a dozen on a cart and no one would feel bad spending $40 on it. I'm not sure it's even possible for them to organize it though--you'd think they'd already be all over the DS if they could have gotten the old materials together.
alex @ Nov 16th 2008 7:25AM
I tend to prefer games with good storyline, I prefere my gaming time to be of quality instead of longevity... I can't see how it is a arguments here, most "big guns" games like Gears 2 or othere are not that long and nobody complain...
On another hand there are some impressive things coming up on new market like the Iphone
have you seen that 1112 one ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIpOEnYlW3E
There are some impressive stuff we can't have on our DS yet
I heard games cost below 10 bucks on the appstore..
with more indie control on a market where you don't need an editor, I think we can have quality game for cheap in the future...
Matt @ Nov 16th 2008 12:13PM
Why do my posts always get deleted?
I don't understand this.
Eccentric-Servbot @ Nov 16th 2008 6:17PM
I tend to be picky with my games, but then replay the ones I do get umpteen bajillion times, so I don't mind if they are a bit on the short side so long as I can still enjoy the writing/dialogue.
I've already played through all the Strong Bad adventure games twice each, and enjoyed the heck out of 'em both times. Lookking forward to the next adventure released tomorrow!
lizzieizzie @ Nov 20th 2008 6:57PM
I'm a huge adventure game fan, and I can't wait for more to come out. But yes, I do agree they have no replay value, so I never keep them. The once or twice I DID buy them, I traded them away. Every adventure game afterwards, I just rented.