Point/Counterpoint: 2D vs. 2D
by Chris Greenhough 
{ Sep 26th 2008 at 5:18PM }
Mega Man 9 rejects all modern graphical conventions, taking the player through a timewarp to 1988 with its intentionally blocky, charming sprites. Conversely, Wario Land: Shake It! is straight from the Metal Slug school of design, in that it uses painstakingly detailed, beautiful hand-drawn art. Which do the Wii Fanboy staff prefer? Read on to hear both sides of the argument!
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Roto13 @ Sep 26th 2008 5:32PM
I like both.
So there.
scissors125 @ Sep 26th 2008 5:34PM
I really don't care if the graphics are of equal quality of Pong, I won't play it unless it's fun.
Graphics just add a little charm to the gameplay. Wario's charm being anime style awesomeness, and Megaman having a giant chunk of nostalgia with it's graphics.
zchry @ Sep 26th 2008 5:50PM
Wario Land isn't anime, I don't believe. I'm not an expert or anything, and I don't even watch the stuff, but it looks like plain-old regular cartoon to me.
zchry @ Sep 26th 2008 5:40PM
Personally, I love pixel art. I love 8-bit. You can't get much better, in my opinion.
But Wario Land: Shake It!, graphically, is insane. To me, it's an advancement of 2D gaming--one of the most beautiful ever made.
I love 2D games. They are absolutely wonderful. It's no secret that Super Paper Mario is a favorite of mine. Still, 3D has given us some of the best games in history--Super Mario Galaxy and The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time to name my favorites--but 2D is where it all traces back to.
It was a tough choice, though, but Wario Land is GORGEOUS. Megaman is amazing, but dang.
jaredgood1 @ Sep 26th 2008 6:25PM
I also like both. However, I do prefer the newer take (Wario, Odin Sphere, etc.).
GatorSax2010 @ Sep 26th 2008 6:53PM
I can't choose. The more I see of Wario Land, the more impressed I am. But Mega Man's 8-bit style works incredibly well. It might not for another game--I'm not dying for an 8-bit Metroid (16-bit, maybe :-P). I'm hesitant to call it nostalgia, but to me, there's something about the original Mega Man series that makes it just feel "right" in 8-bit. I see it as a stylistic choice, much like black and white in film. In the early years of film, you didn't have a choice. It was black and white, or no movie at all. Today, color is cheap, and it's become the preferred way to film. However, every once in a while someone chooses to make a film in black and white, and it's very effective. (Don't even get me started on "colorized" movies, though, that's another issue entirely...)
So I guess what I'm trying to say is, it depends on the game.
TheOverlord#2 @ Sep 26th 2008 7:43PM
I can so see that image happening in Super Smash Bros. :enter fighting syllable here:
Gewurztraminer says: Shinkuu Gadouken! @ Sep 26th 2008 10:11PM
Wario...
versus...
Giant Pixel Mega Man...
in Super Smash Bros: Altercation
Gewurztraminer says: Shinkuu Gadouken! @ Sep 26th 2008 10:12PM
Super Smash Bros: Brouhaha?
TheOverlord#2 @ Sep 26th 2008 10:21PM
lol, syllable. My grammer is FAIL.
And the next SSB names have come down to either Super Smash Bros. Slapfight or Super Smash Bros. Bloody Day of Destruction.
zchry @ Sep 27th 2008 11:23AM
One of my favorites is Schindler's List, which used the color red super effectively. It didn't even feel like you were watching a black and white movie; there was so much there in the story and characters that it didn't need colors.
Also, your avatar is awful, FYI. Mario would never be a Gator.
Nushio (NDF - Blue) @ Sep 26th 2008 8:14PM
The one thing I disliked about Megaman 9 is its stubborness to stick to "retro".
It doesn't feel "retro" when you can't play it with your gamecube controllers because devs are too lazy to implement a working joystick.
It doesn't feel "retro" when they don't give us the OPTION to switch weapons using L or R as in later snes games when using the Classic pad.
It also feels like a step back from Megaman games. I know its supposed to "look and feel like Megaman 2", but no charging the Mega-buster? No dash? (Jump while pressing down), not even the Megaman+Rush fusion.
*SpOiLeR*: Otoman-Pray doesn't appear in the mid-game at all! *Spoiler*.
It does feel like a quick cash job tbh, but that doesn't mean I didn't enjoy every minute I've played of it, or every time I died.
Nushio (NDF - Blue) @ Sep 26th 2008 8:16PM
As for the 2d vs 2d question... I think Ninty did it best with New Super Mario Bros: Updated graphics, updated engine, same goodies (Mushroom and Flowers) along with new goodies (Mega Mushroom and Blue Shell).
Memo @ Sep 26th 2008 8:25PM
I have read a lot of this debate a lot and I have come to two conclusions. Graphics are important to make the game. For example, attention to detail for certain games is what makes it great. But gameplay could be the point of focus. But here is what nobody has mentioned, what about the game that mastered both 2D and 3D, Super Paper Mario. Hidden items in both realms and it is fun to play. It uses the Wii remote well. Let's just try to match graphics with gameplay please!
Gewurztraminer says: Shinkuu Gadouken! @ Sep 26th 2008 10:15PM
MM9 in 8-bit sounds nice and all, but MMX in 16-bit would pique my interest even more so.
Gewurztraminer says: Shinkuu Gadouken! @ Sep 27th 2008 8:16AM
UPDATE: Edit - "MMX9 in 16-bit would pique my interest"
TheOverlord#2 @ Sep 27th 2008 9:06PM
Let's hope for a 16-Bit Mega Man 10 and a hand-drawn side-scroller(WL:SI! style) Mega Man 11. :D
TJF588 @ Sep 27th 2008 2:27AM
"MMX"? Do you mean "MM10"? Regardless, I feel semi-estranged to BOTH styles.
Mega Man 9 is an 8-bit-style game coming _after_ higher-bit-style entries. The series could have been neatly devided into 2/3s NES, 1/3 other spritey things. Sure, it looks rather nice, and perhaps too much detail would hurt the simplicity of the character designs, but would a few more bits' worth of resolution been too much detail? I think not. Personally, I still think the story should have progressed with more detailed sprites showing up here and there, with this prominence in upgrading increasing up until Wily's castle (or whatever the final area is), in which you have a still 8-bit Mega Man fighting a full modern-gen (well, partial-modern-gen, given Wii's capabilities) Wily machine. Would've been a nice flare, and could unlock the options to play it in different styles, perhaps with Wily's final resolution (and thus strength) based upon how quickly you were able to get to him before the upscaling did.
On the other hand, Shake It! weird me out _because_ it looks like a cartoon. I have become so used to 2D games having some degree of pixelation that seeing something hand-drawn (especially in a style that is discernably different than how it's (the series) incarnated before) is a bit of a jar. It looks too smooth, and thus I don't quite feel like there's a grasp on where boundaries are. There's no "pixel-perfect" with it because there's no pixels outside of whatever your TV natively uses.
Personally, I don't want games to regress to olde-school simply because that was the dawn of things awesome, but I don't want ultra-smooth to prevail because it just doesn't seem video-gamey (3D games have a bit of an 'up' in this department, since the obvious interaction helps to remind that you're watching a user doing something (perhaps the not-movie/show-quality-yet polygon count also helps), rather than the watching-a-show/demo feel I get from the handful of WL:SI! screenshots/trailers I've seen). Can't we have SNES-era graphics (maybe not SNES-era-limitations, but a similar degree)? Those were a nice blend of quirky old-school and modern definition.
Gewurztraminer says: Shinkuu Gadouken! @ Sep 27th 2008 8:14AM
No I did not mean MM10. I actually meant MMX9 (hypothetically speaking, of course). As in I would like to see that series back in 16-bit.
samfish @ Sep 27th 2008 2:38AM
I like both, but overall I'd prefer something like Wario over Mega Man 9.
Mega Man is one of the FEW characters that can get away with the retro thing because the series, much to many people's chagrin, had gotten so far away from what made so many people love it so much in the first place.
Castlevania couldn't get away with it, I don't think, because the series has stayed true to it's roots over the years...so a step back would make you ask..."why?"
Sonic could pull it off. Earthworm Jim could pull it off.
Mario could PROBABLY pull it off, assuming you went with SMW style graphics...but NSMB's existence would also make the game feel like a step back, too.
On the other hand, you have games like Cave Story, Knytt Stories or my beloved Noitu Love 2, which use old school graphics and are all the more awesome for it.
Art style is really important to the point where it can effect the gameplay. Just look at Mega Man 7 or 8 for proof of that!
That all said, when I was growing up playing games, I always thought that the holy grail of games would be to make it look like you were literally playing a cartoon. Games like Wario, Castle Crashers or Odin Sphere (hell, Wind Waker and Okami, too) achieve that goal in my eyes.
So when I see a game like Wario Land, it's like seeing what I always imagined gaming would become before 3D became the thing every one was shooting for.
So yeah...I'd personally rather see more games in vein of Wario Land than Mega Man 9, but if we start seeing more retro graphics, you probably won't exactly catch me complaining too much, either.
hellhammer @ Sep 27th 2008 2:50AM
"I'm not exactly opposed to Mega Man 9 mining the past for its visuals, but I'm constantly puzzled by the universally positive response to Capcom's use of 1988-era pixels. This may sound like heresy, but isn't it sort of pointless?"
That's just it. The whole point was to go back to the beginning and create a game for people who didn't particularly care to move on from/abandon the NES style of video games and wish to revisit that.
@Nushio (NDF - Blue)
"The one thing I disliked about Megaman 9 is its stubborness to stick to "retro"."
Don't mean to be redundant but that's the entire point of making a throw-back title...It's retro.
"It doesn't feel "retro" when you can't play it with your gamecube controllers because devs are too lazy to implement a working joystick."
Yet Gamecube controllers have nothing to do with Mega Man on NES. And how are GC controllers retro?! If anything, it's the exact opposite. Playing with the Wiimote(designed after the NES controller) gives you much more of the 'retro' feel.
"It doesn't feel "retro" when they don't give us the OPTION to switch weapons using L or R as in later snes games when using the Classic pad."
NES was several years before SNES. Again, nothing to do with Mega Man on NES.
"It also feels like a step back from Megaman games. I know its supposed to "look and feel like Megaman 2", but no charging the Mega-buster? No dash?"
Correct! MM9 was made to reflect MM2. MM2 did not include charge shots, nor did it offer the slide. Therefore, MM9 does not offer either option. Pretty straight forward.
TJF588 @ Sep 27th 2008 2:13PM
He means that restricting control and ease thereof does not add to a retro appeal, but rather reminds one of things that really are more of a hinderance than anything else (adding SELECT Button key item use in Pokemon G/S/C comes to mind, as well as the B Button dash in R/S/E (and the GBA FF ports, heh)).
Cyantre @ Sep 27th 2008 4:02AM
It depends on the game and the atmosphere you are trying to create.
I love the 2D in Braid, and I love the 2D in Mega Man 9.
BlackDogAssault @ Sep 27th 2008 11:31AM
Sincerely, I would love if a surge of Wario-like games came about... It's a twist that took long enough to appear. I mean, nowadays, it's a bit less important, as much as I like it, but it should've been how many of N64 and PSX should've looked like. In those systems, we've seen downright fugly 3D, games that could have aged a LOT better if they were PRETTY 2D.