Wii Warm Up: Superfluous waggle
by JC Fletcher 
{ Apr 7th 2007 at 10:00AM }
Some games, like the ubiquitous Wii Sports, use the Wiimote's space-age technology to closely map real motion into gameplay. This is generally regarded as "neat" and accepted by the masses, who run off to show their grandparents.Other games, like the upcoming port of Resident Evil 4, make no such attempt to represent physical motion as virtual motion (outside of the new knife controls). In fact, some of the motion controls seem to be simulating button presses. Case in point, reloading requires you to hold B and shake the Wiimote. That's hardly more representative of the action of reloading a gun than pushing a button, or even going into a menu.
We sort of revealed how we felt there, but this isn't about us. It's about you. How does non-representative motion control affect you? Is it still fun to waggle, even when you're waggling abstractly?
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Frip @ Apr 7th 2007 10:10AM
It's a damn shame. I'll still be getting RE4 since I've never played it, but if Capcom is going to implement gimmicky controls into their Wii games, there is probably not much hope outside Nintendo (who really is already guilty of this with Twilight Princess).
Doctor Other @ Apr 7th 2007 10:51AM
I believe it is fine to use non-movement simulating controls when the movement in question is rather hard to recreate with the Wii remote. For example, I never expected Nintendo to want me to truly perform a spinning attack, like the one found in Twilight Princess. Instead, a simple waggle of the controller made much more sense, and allowed for seemless gameplay. I think the button presses are fine as long as they are intuitive. The motion sensing capabilities not only allow players to feel more "into" the game - something done with controls simulating on-screen movement - but they also allow movements which just feel GOOD, much more so than a hefty button combonation or awkward menu navigation.
In this case, I hope that the B button has a bevy of other things it can do, and that the remote commands that go along with it all feel natural and responsive, making gameplay much, much easier.
Illini Jen @ Apr 7th 2007 12:07PM
Here's me totally ignoring the potential of the Wiimote: What's the difference between wagging abstractly and pressing buttons in a memorized pattern? Neither make a particular amount of sense and are really only useful when they become memorized patterns of movement.
Now, NOT ignoring the potential of the Wiimote: I think game designers who are porting games and tacking controls on are lazy and doing it because they have to with the Wii. I don't think we'll see a decent third-party game that makes great use of the Wiimote on the Wii for another year or two, and it's highly doubtful it will be a port.
Ihar `Philips` Filipau @ Apr 7th 2007 11:08AM
(1) WiiMote pointing == targeting.
(2) 'A' == shooting. 'B' (trigger) is too slow. Combined with my generally slow reaction speed make some places needlessly hard. Also, on WiiMote, pressing 'B' requires often to move two fingers: putting thumb on top of wiimote and then pressing with index finger 'B' (that one of the things what makes 'B' key functions in Zelda often very hard, without thumb on top of wiimote targeting goes off). When pressing 'A' one needs to move only thumb - since index/middle fingers are normally already holding/supporting wiimote at bottom.
(3) And no stinking reloading please!!! The stuff had plagued many PC games (e.g. Doom3) - and only relevant to multiplayer (to punish ammo hoarders - and that's questionable practice on its own). Otherwise reloading sucks and is bore. As if in future (and all the games portrait some future) there are no auto-reloading guns...
Matt @ Apr 7th 2007 12:03PM
I think waggle can be entertaining for arcade style games. Bur for RE4, Tiger Woods, etc., there should be no waggle...
Jared @ Apr 7th 2007 11:40AM
well....i was playing the house of the dead 4 today at an arcade, and guess what you had to do to reload...SHAKE THE GUN!!!! i find it to be exciting, more so than pressing a button to reload; you have a hoard of those guys coming at you and you run out of ammo, and you have to shake the wiimote, FAST. can't wait
Wizky911 @ Apr 8th 2007 3:39PM
ok well Frip, i think you're wrong about Zelda. The Waggle motion in Zelda is fine. You use it to swing your sword. I cant think of any other way to have Link swing his sword with out losing immersion in the game. If it were more realistic sword movements like in Red Steel, it would take away b/c unlike Red Steel, Zelda is in the third person view and you're often attacked by multiple enemies, so you need to focus on that instead of the character in front of you.
And 'Philips' In game reloading is pretty essential to the game play experience. It adds a bit of strategy. If you in the middle of a gun fight in Doom 3, you know you're gonna run out of ammo and have to reload, so you know to reload often, b/c if the other person runs out first, that will leave them venerable and vice versa. I love reloading. If you didn't have to reload then the guy with the rocket launcher would always win.
But sticking to the RE4 context, using 'waggle' with RE4 is just lazy. What if i sneeze? I'm gonna reload. Dumb. I'm pretty sure the fan base would be a lot happier if you flick the nun-chuck to reload like in Red Steel. I believe that developers are forgetting that the Wii is supposed to simulate natural realistic movements.
meist3r @ Apr 7th 2007 12:28PM
I only have to think back to the fun I had playing Zelda:TP I shook the living daylight out of the Wiimote whenever I fought against a bunch of foes not even slightly resembling sword blows and yeah it's fun. I still would prefer accurate controls that actually mimic my actions though.
For the thing I am writing next some people might want to criticize me but even if there never is a game that actually uses the Wiimote to it's full potential I still think it was worth it just to introduce a control scheme like that into the world. Nintendo already did succeed and if only by making so many people play with the Wiimote (not necessarily the Wii itself) and give inspiration for the next generation of 3D controls. There will be great Wii games in the future but it still might take a couple of years from now.
Eric @ Apr 7th 2007 12:32PM
I want realistic motions to control my games. I might buy Resident Evil 4, if it's a lower price, but it's not at the top of my list.
I want a more "Wii Sports"-like way of controlling my games, otherwise the motion is an expensive analog stick.
vidGuy @ Apr 7th 2007 12:51PM
Now here we have the heart of the matter. Wii controls can be great and intuitive or gimmicky and "waggle"y, but it depends on the game development, not the hardware. SSX Blur exhibits some great control, especially the nunchuk-steering. Twilight Princess shows we can have great interaction (aiming with the pointer), some decent motion-activated controls (spin attack), and some awkward controls (swinging the sword) all in one game. Tiger Woods is probably one of the best examples of great control (swing) mixed with awkward motion control (spin) - that doesn't affect the gameplay. After the first time, shaking the remote to produce spin becomes natural, at least as exhibited by the group of 20-something guys I've played against.
Now the other side is why are game developers taking this route. I don't know how detailed the remote's data is, but how hard would it be to distinguish between a cocking motion (for reloading a shotgun), a clip-motion (for reloading a handgun), and a stab with the knife? If you don't have a combination of button presses to distinguish what is going on, the game may be very confused as to what the player is trying to do. And then if you have button+motion combination, such as: hold B+cocking motion to reload shotgun, hold B+clip-motion to reload handgun, etc, why not just have B reload? This is the problem we've seen in Madden 07. You have to hold a direction pad button to distinguish your receiver, then make a throwing motion. Some ask: why not just make the D-pad throw from being to end? But here's the beauty: you can't put different levels of pressure on the D-pad, but you CAN control how fast you throw the ball via remote input.
Basically, I think that controls will get better with age because it is a process of trial and error. The sometimes gimmicky, "waggle"y controls we see are not the result of any hardware problems, just programming decisions. Honestly, in this development of RE4, couldn't you hold B and make whatever motion you wanted, including a clip-motion, to activate the reload sequence? It may work out better than people think.
reef @ Apr 7th 2007 3:11PM
In Red Steel, it felt better to flick the nunchuck for reloading than it does to press a button in any other game. I hope it's the same for RE4.
Dan @ Apr 7th 2007 3:06PM
Actually, in a way, they kind of ARE hardware problems. Although I wouldn't call them hardware problems; instead, call them hardware limitations.
The thing is, the Wii's motion controls are not as capable as we originally thought they were back in 2005. I won't go into details, but basically, if we want this detection of "any direction in 3D space", we have to use the sensor bar for that (I'm not talking about tilt, just relocating the controller). This doesn't allow for a lot of free motion or movement.
On the other hand: In my opinion, awkward controls can still be cool. Take Wii Play, for example. A lot of people don't really like that game, but I love it. I love playing Table Tennis. Sure, I'm not replicating the exact same movements that I would in the real thing, but still, there's something intriguing about just using the pointer function to move my paddle.
So... there's a plus side to it. So yeah, "waggle controls" aren't necessarily just a programming decision, but the programmers don't really have the choice of making the real movements detectable.
As a sidenote: Waggle controls can be good or bad. It just depends on you you implement it.
Skyler @ Apr 7th 2007 3:55PM
Pathetic! When will 3rd party developers learn to use the damn controller correctly!?
Rubang B @ Apr 7th 2007 4:35PM
They have. Play Elebits.
egotrippen @ Apr 7th 2007 5:33PM
there's not only one right answer to this topic. there are plenty of games that only the wii is going to be capable of, and in these i would like to see the remote used to accurately describe an action.
then there are FPS games, which (talking consoles now) i definitely think the wii has an edge. the Red Steel multiplayer was pretty fantastic, with almost no learning curve - i was able to pick it up and hold my own against a kid who owned the game, which i've NEVER been able to do with a console FPS. of course, that was more about the point-and-shoot aiming than the motion control, but still
and then you've got multiplatform games, like Marvel Ultimate Alliance. this might sound minor, but the thing i like best about the wii version against the 360 is simply being able to play with my hands crossed. i'm able to hold my shoulders in a more natural position. the waggle-as-button-press system doesn't seem better or worse than the regular button presses on the gamepad (i almost always used A for a regular attack, waggle for powers and special attacks).
i've got the non Hardcore Gamer perspective - i skipped out on the last generation entirely - so the ports of older games don't bother me. the idea of motion control being 'tacked on' is less important than the question of accuracy. if they get the job done, it's ok if they're the same things i could be doing with a regular controller. i expect more from the Wii, but i don't need more from every game
samfish @ Apr 7th 2007 8:32PM
I think a lot of you folks are WAY to quick to call controls 'gimmicky'.
I mean, waving the Wiimote and hitting the B trigger to reload is gimmicky? Soooo...are you the same people who have never played an arcade shooter? You know- those games where EVERY SINGLE TIME you have to reload you AIM THE GUN OFF SCREEN AND HIT THE TRIGGER?
Honest to God, I've seen damn near every control scheme called a gimmick at one point or another, I think. Zelda, Excite Truck, Sonic, Trauma Center, Elebits...
Seriously, what is a NON-gimmicky control scheme to you guys? Given the standards that are being set, Mario Galaxy's controls are going to be a huge gimmick.
Are MK: Armageddon's controls a gimmick?
Some people seem like they want motion controls implemented so...conservatively that I really have no clue why they'd even WANT a Wii. You folks who think that way really sound like you're better off buying a PS3, if that's the case.
It seems like there's a number of people who think that only the most basic and obvious uses of motion control should be used and the rest should be left like it's always been with the standard style controller.
As for me personally, I say bring the "gimmicky" controls on! I WANT to wave the Wiimote off screen and hit a button to reload. I want a Mega Man game like Tanks! in Wii Play where you aim the blaster with the Wiimote. I want to flick the Wiimote up to jump in SSBB.
As long as it makes a reasonable amount of sense to make a particular gesture, than implement it.
Psycho300x @ Apr 7th 2007 9:57PM
Well Capcom better fix the progressive scan on RE4 because when its hooked up component to HDTV and you start Prog scan on RE4 for gamecube the screen is like 1/8 of the total screen and it still looks crappy on an HDTV, on SD it looks great tho too bad SDTV isnt the future...
vidGuy @ Apr 8th 2007 2:31AM
@Psycho300x,
That's because RE4 was actually a 4:3 image. The black bars were added to the top. RE4 for Wii will be presented in true 16:9, so all stretching/squashing will be fixed - the image will fit perfectly on a 16:9 TV.
afs @ Apr 9th 2007 5:10AM
"In fact, some of the motion controls seem to be simulating button presses."
But that's the way it is and will be in every single Wii game. Nudge the nunchuk up to jump vs. pressing X or whatever on your gamepad, waggle the Wiimote to run vs. pressing right trigger etc...